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 For sloppy and Bizar.

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Meemers



Number of posts : 28
Registration date : 2007-09-25

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PostSubject: For sloppy and Bizar.   For sloppy and Bizar. Icon_minitimeFri Nov 02, 2007 9:53 am

Here you go guys.

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t13066-shaman_elemental_shaman_dps_spreadsheet/p32/

The calculations are the ones at #785 (Page 32)

//Meemers
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Meemers



Number of posts : 28
Registration date : 2007-09-25

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PostSubject: Re: For sloppy and Bizar.   For sloppy and Bizar. Icon_minitimeFri Nov 02, 2007 6:07 pm

Quote :
Q u o t e:
How much +dmg do we lose on each LB now,if anyone has any numbers available ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Currently your Lightning Bolt will gain 86% of your characters spell damage, after the patch you Lightning Bolts will gain 71% of your characters spell damage.

Say for your shaman with 555 spell damage, I guess you would normally hit for around 1170 (*there is of course a damage range) unbuffed right now? After the patch the same lightning bolt will hit for about 1085 so you would see a drop of 85 damage , a drop of just over 7%. The damage difference per bolt obviously gets larger as your gear gets better.


Based upon your correctness about the percentage of the used + damage:



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q u o t e:
Lightning Bolt Rank 12
300 Mana 30 yd range
2.5 sec cast
Casts a bolt of lightning at the target for 563 to 643 Nature damage.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



avarage bolt: 603 (base value to work with)

250 spelldamage @86% = 215 + 603 = 818
500 spelldamage @86% = 430 + 603 = 1033
750 spelldamage @86% = 645 + 603 = 1248
1000 spelldamage @86% = 860 + 603 = 1463
1250 spelldamage @86% = 1075 + 603 = 1678
1500 spelldamage @86% = 1290 + 603 = 1893

250 spelldamage @71% = 177,5 + 603 = 780,5
500 spelldamage @71% = 355 + 603 = 958
750 spelldamage @71% = 532,5 + 603 = 1135,5
1000 spelldamage @71% = 710 + 603 = 1313
1250 spelldamage @71% = 887,5 + 603 = 1490,5
1500 spelldamage @71% = 1065 + 603 = 1668

damage loss off: in raw (in %)

250 spelldamage 818 - 780,5 = 37,5 (~4,6%)
500 spelldamage 1033 - 958 = 75 (~7,3%)
750 spelldamage 1248 - 1135,5 = 112,5 (~9,0%)
1000 spelldamage 1463 - 1313 = 150 (~10,3%)
1250 spelldamage 1678 - 1490.5 = 187,5 (~11,2%)
1500 spelldamage 1893 - 1668 = 225 (~11,9%)

What i was trying to say the other day Smile And yes you were partly right on this subject sloppy. Highend raiders will loose more DPS and lowend shamans will not loose as much. But overall, still a nerf and you cant get around that sloppy Smile

Also 2.3 is downloading now, so it cant be long. Still they need to announce that S3 is coming for farming to begin and that will have atleast 3 weeks notice.
Supposedly Blizz is looking into it. But if patch 2.3 is pre-downloading already, it means they are generally happy with the look of it and now want just to do some fine tuning and bug checking. It is still possible that something for shaman will change, but it is even more unlikely now.
Especially taking into account there have been changes to many classes in the previous days and none to shaman.

Personally i think we get more of that "oh, we didn't manage to finish it on time, but in 2.4 you'll get really good things" and then "oh, we are busy making next xpac, but but WotLK and all will be shiny" crap we are usually fed.

//Meemers
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Sloppyflesh



Number of posts : 16
Registration date : 2007-10-12

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PostSubject: Re: For sloppy and Bizar.   For sloppy and Bizar. Icon_minitimeSat Nov 03, 2007 1:54 pm

All I said was that LO would be twice as good in 2.3, and the calculations in #785 agree with me. ( ((D * 0.95) + (2D * 0.05)) vs ((D * 0.80) + (1.5D * 0.20)) )

Shammies are getting a dps boost from LO, and a dps loss from reduced coefficiency. You second post only considers the dps loss and doesn't add the dps boost from LO, so it's totally wrong.

And it's not overall a nerf, altho you need really low +spell dmg to actually get a dps boost. I put in the numbers and ended up on only 267.53125 spell dmg (I could very well be wrong on this one, I think I saw 383 or so in another post). So you'd need less than that to actually get a pure dps boost.

But apart from the pure dps loss, what about the -10% threat, the improved -mana cost on crit, and the +70MP/5 elem shammies are getting? You make it sound like you never have to worry about threat and never run out of mana. I still think that for most shamen 2.3 will be a buff. PvP shammies will get nerfed (altho they don't usually have über +spell dmg since they need stam), but for most non-high-end raiding shammies it looks like a buff to me.
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Meemers



Number of posts : 28
Registration date : 2007-09-25

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PostSubject: Re: For sloppy and Bizar.   For sloppy and Bizar. Icon_minitimeSat Nov 03, 2007 3:15 pm

The mana effeciency i have no problem with as it is. I can last as well as a mage or druid or whatever on a normal gruul/lurker fight. So that one is basicly "wasted". Will be nice, but not nessecary.

also the -15% thread is for enhancements. AFAIK the only reduction to Elemental threat is the proc from LO. And taking it does 50% less damage then post 2.2 then it's pretty much unnessecary too.

Still getting DPS nerf no matter how you look at it sloppy. We even got a second "buff" today:

Q u o t e:
Eye of the Storm: This talent can now trigger while the Shaman is sitting.

Yay?

This is overall a sad patch for Elemental shamans. Maybe you just have to be in the shoes of an elemental to see what issues there is and have been. But i am somewhat confused that you cant see it, sloppy since you have Moo Smile
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Zunjiihn

Zunjiihn

Number of posts : 42
Registration date : 2007-06-06

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PostSubject: Threat   For sloppy and Bizar. Icon_minitimeSat Nov 03, 2007 3:25 pm

elemental shaman has 10% less threat with the "elemental precision talent" ^^, and that talent also increases hit chance... Gief rogues a talent like it? :-P
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Meemers



Number of posts : 28
Registration date : 2007-09-25

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PostSubject: Re: For sloppy and Bizar.   For sloppy and Bizar. Icon_minitimeSat Nov 03, 2007 3:42 pm

Quote :
Here is a small list of changes to the Shaman class that are expected to be implemented in the next content patch:


Mana Spring Totem effect increased. The highest level is now 20mana per 2 seconds

Frost Shock is no longer subject to diminishing returns.

Lightning Overload (Elemental) now has a 4/8/12/16/20% chance to occur and the additional spell causes half damage and no additional threat.

Lightning Bolt cast time reduced to 2.5 (from 3.0 where applicable), mana costs reduced, benefit from spell damage reduced appropriately.

Chain Lightning cast time reduced to 2.0 (from 2.5), mana costs reduced, benefit from spell damage reduced appropriately.

Lightning Mastery (Elemental) cast time reduction reduced to .1/.2/.3/.4/.5 seconds.

Elemental Focus (Elemental) now reduces the mana cost of the next 2 damage spells by 40%.

Two-Handed Axes and Two-Handed Maces are now trainable by all Shaman at the appropriate weapon masters. The Enhancement talent has been replaced by Shamanistic Focus.

Shamanistic Focus (New Enhancement Talent): After landing a melee critical strike, you enter a Focused state. The Focused state reduces the mana cost of your next Shock spell by 60%.

Shamanistic Rage (Enhancement) now also reduces all damage taken by 30% for the duration.

Spirit Weapons (Enhancement) threat reduction increased to 30% from 15%.

Water Shield: This spell no longer costs any mana to cast and its duration has been shortened. At the end of its duration it now grants mana for any remaining globes. In addition, the mana granted per globe has been substantially increased.

Tidefury Raiment: The additional mana granted to Water Shield by this set has been increased.

Totem of the Thunderhead: The additional mana granted to Water Shield by this totem has been increased.

Update:

Mental Quickness now also increases spell damage and healing equal to 10/20/30% of your attack power.

no such thing Zal...

It's in out talent tree as it is now, yes. but that doesnt have anything to do with being a buff or a nerf. It's not touched at all during 2.3


Last edited by on Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Meemers



Number of posts : 28
Registration date : 2007-09-25

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PostSubject: Re: For sloppy and Bizar.   For sloppy and Bizar. Icon_minitimeSat Nov 03, 2007 3:45 pm

Wtf spam!


Last edited by on Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Zunjiihn

Zunjiihn

Number of posts : 42
Registration date : 2007-06-06

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PostSubject: ohhhh   For sloppy and Bizar. Icon_minitimeSat Nov 03, 2007 3:50 pm

I think I misunderstood this post ^^,

I thought you said there wasn't any talent in elemental tree reducing threat ^^
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Sloppyflesh



Number of posts : 16
Registration date : 2007-10-12

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PostSubject: Re: For sloppy and Bizar.   For sloppy and Bizar. Icon_minitimeSat Nov 03, 2007 5:22 pm

Meemers wrote:
The mana effeciency i have no problem with as it is. I can last as well as a mage or druid or whatever on a normal gruul/lurker fight. So that one is basicly "wasted". Will be nice, but not nessecary.

Well I would love to get improved mana efficiency on Sloppy. I can't go all out on longer fights without running out of mana. More mana as an elem shammy means you can throw out flame shocks if you need to move, and also throw out chain lightning (0.5 secs shorter cast, so a bit more dps there). It's not much of an improvement, but your dps loss should be less than 5% so it goes a long way to offset that. Also, on longer boss fights you lose *massive* amounts of dps if you run out of mana. Are you telling me you've *never* run out of mana on any boss fight *ever*? (I'm not sure how elem shammies work in raid, if the answer is 'no' and you've been using chain lightning/flame shock too, then you're right, it's wasted.)

Meemers wrote:
also the -15% thread is for enhancements. AFAIK the only reduction to Elemental threat is the proc from LO. And taking it does 50% less damage then post 2.2 then it's pretty much unnessecary too.

Yes, it does 50% less damage per proc, but it procs four times as often (I'm assuming it works like Blizz said it would, haven't tested it on PTR). Like I said in my previous post, LO does twice as much damage in 2.3. The post you linked to says the same. All posts I've seen on the subject also say the same. If you still don't believe this, I can understand why you're upset with 2.3, but you really need to read up on this.

So LO is 10% added damage instead of 5%. And that damage is threat free. 10% extra damage totally threat free. Doesn't that seem pretty awesome to you? Together with the -10% threat you have from the other talent that's -20% threat for elem shammies, which is *very* nice if you ask me.

Meemers wrote:
Still getting DPS nerf no matter how you look at it sloppy.

I've always said high-end-raiding shammies will be be getting a dps nerf. And that low-end shammies will be getting a dps boost. The way the math works, "low-end" in this case will probably mean shammies that haven't started doing the level 70 instances yet. Good for those leveling elem shammies, but once you hit 70 you break even pretty fast and then you start to lose raw dps (compared to 2.2) once you gear up.

But I still think most shammies will be getting an overall buff even with the dps reduction. Less threat = able to start nuking faster = more dps. Better mana efficiency and +70MP/5 = no pauses or downranking = more dps.
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Meemers



Number of posts : 28
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PostSubject: Re: For sloppy and Bizar.   For sloppy and Bizar. Icon_minitimeSun Nov 04, 2007 6:41 pm

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Sloppyflesh



Number of posts : 16
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PostSubject: Re: For sloppy and Bizar.   For sloppy and Bizar. Icon_minitimeSun Nov 04, 2007 7:21 pm

That video seems to be based on around 2 mins of dps, which would mean a sample size of 60. Since LO has a 5% proc on live, that means an average of only 3 LO procs. 3 procs is way way way too few to statistically determine anything.

Also, notice the lag indicator on the cast bar. It's really high on test realm, and if you compare cast speed you will also see that he's casting LB's at a much faster rate on live (more than 10% faster). Which makes the comparison utterly useless.
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